In the 2nd part of our Holi episode, we talk about the colours, issues, the images and the misconceptions with our guest Neha who is the founder of Shaktitva.org. General InformationSubscribers are requested to look for The Hindu Parenting notification emails for new podcasts/posts in their email promotions/spam tab and personally move these into the main inbox. Thereafter all posts will be delivered to their main inbox. Thank you!For questions that you’d like us to address, please use the form below:Hindu Parenting QuestionsFor comments and suggestions, please use the comments tab or write to us at contact@hinduparenting.orgPlease note that questions will not be answered on email.Do subscribe to our substack and follow us on our social media handles Twitter: hinduparenting Instagram: hinduparenting Telegram: t.me/hinduparenting Facebook: facebook.com/groups/hinduparenting TranscriptRekha: Namaste! Welcome to the Hindu Parenting Podcast, Part 2 of the Holi Episode. Please join us as we continue the fascinating discussion about the Festival of Holi with some more stories from Neha ji, founder of Shaktitva and a Devi Upasaka. Neha: So, just to complete the story, eventually when all of these attempts to, you know, to kill Prahlad fail, and Hiranyakashipu decides to take the matters into his own hands and he finds this unarmed child. In a fit of rage, he tries to strike a sword with. So, he, you know, the child ducks and the sword hits a pillar. And from that pillar, Narsimha Avatar appears. And now Narsimha Avatar is the half-man, half-animal. So, it's not either, the boon was either animal or man. But this avatar is half-man, half-animal. And this is the most, you know, interesting element of the story. So, this Narsimha Avatar, Sri Vishnu takes him to the, at the, what we call dehleez , like the corner of the house. Yeah, the threshold of the house, exactly. He stands on the threshold of the house, takes this demon, puts him on his thigh, so that he's not on the ground or on the sky. He's on Sri Vishnu's thigh. And then he claws his heart out with his claws. So, it's not a known weapon. Yeah. And he does this at exactly a dusk when it is neither morning, day or night. Shalini: Sandhyakaal! Neha: Yeah, sandhyakaal, like the mixing when it's neither day nor night. So, he finds that exact combination that will defeat that very ingenious boon. And that's how, you know, Hiranyakashipu is defeated. Finally, Prahlad gets to witness his Ishta in the raw form, and he is blessed. And then Prahlad takes over the throne and continues the lineage of Sage Kashyap going forward. So, that Holika moment. Shalini: You said the story so beautifully. Neha: Awww! Thank you! Rekha: Nehaji, I love the part where the puzzle gets solved. I can see how kids can get absolutely fascinated by this, you know, if parents can just tell their kids, you give this puzzle; even if your kid doesn't know the story but tries to solve this puzzle.“Neither during the day nor night”. I mean, it's just too beautiful. Neha: It's ingenious. Yeah, absolutely. And see, the moral of the story is right, like you can, first of all, like I always wonder these people, they put hundreds of years of sadhana or many lifetimes of sadhana to get a boon from their Ishta, right? Like imagine, you're sitting in extreme penance, like Ravana's penance and then Hiranyakashipu's penance is not ordinary. This is like almost hundreds of years of extreme penance, even thousands of years by some accounts. They sit and you ask for such a stupid thing. I mean, your Ishta is standing in front of you deviate and you ask that you should not be killed. Why is that? I think that shows the nature of who we call demon is not by birth or lineage, you know, these are Kashyap rishi’s sons, like these are the most exalted lineage you can find in all of Bharat Varsha. And that is evident because they have the capability to do this penance for eons. This is not ordinary feat in itself and the lineage is definitely blessed. So it's not by birth or by previous or whatever is the other ways of people understanding it. It's not about descent, it's not about race, it's not about caste, it's not about all of these things. It's about what you do with your abilities, right? What are your desires? Shalini:Yeah, absolutely. That is true. Neha: Yeah, as a Devi upasaka, when Ma comes to me and I ask something so stupid, I think like, you know, I should be banned from sadhana… do that if somebody does things like this. But you know, devatas are when they're happy, they're happy, they will give you what they want as long as it's within - as long as it doesn't defy the laws of nature. And so you can find several stories where Brahma is giving boons or Ma is giving boons or you know, Shiva is giving boons and these, depending on who is getting the boons, people do different things. Rekha: I'd like to bring up one point here. You live in the US. And I know that about three years ago, just pre-COVID, there was this thing in US universities about Holi against Hindutva, where Holika was painted as a Dalit woman. And you know, many people tried to spread this rumor in colleges that there's something very bad going on when Holika is burnt because she is an oppressed woman and she's a Dalit. And so I know that a lot of Indian children got swayed by this. I'd like you to weigh in on this because.. Neha: yeah, absolutely. So actually, with the exact incident you're talking about, led me to write a two-part article on Holi on Shaktitva blog. The part where I explain what Holi is and the many colors of Holi is one article. And then there is a second article called “Let the Subaltern Speak”, in which I kind of explore exactly this point. So first of all, like logically speaking, you know, a lot of these claims are absurd to the point of ignorance. Like they, they rely on the fact that a lot of people don't know about these stories and the legends or all the meanings behind what we do as a culture. And that's part of colonialism, you know, just detaching us from our roots is definitely part of the colonial projects. So that now that, you know, the urban audience has already detached very few know the story of Holika or why we do this, you can twist the argument in your favor. So there are two main articles that led to this Equality Labs protest that were challenged by it. So basically this Equality Labs organization cited two main articles in their write up for Holi against Hindutva. One of them was from Pradnya Waghule, which said ‘Reading caste in Holi- the burning of Holika, a Bahujan woman’. And the second one is the Equality Labs, its own article, ‘why do we say no to Holi’ In both of them, you know, I am not going to critique the whole blog, because it's ridiculous. But you can see a very clear indication that this is nothing but Hinduphobia. So Waghule herself says that she's only only ever lived in cities all her life. Right. So the what I'm trying the reason I'm trying to highlight that is because she has no in-first person knowledge of these traditions. Right. Whereas, you know, most of our families are just two generations ago, we were living in villages. So that's number one. Now this reading of Bahujan woman of Holika - Holika's existence comes from this story that I told you about. She is Hiranyakashipu’s sister. Hiranya Kashyapu and Hiranyaksha are very clearly Kashyap Rishi's sons. So Kashyap Rishi is like, you know, one of the Saptarishis. So obviously he's the ultra ultra Brahmin, not even ordinary normal Shukla chukla or, you know, Pandya Brahmin is the ultra Brahmin, like he has an entire Gotra named after him. And he these are the first one, not first one, but he is like, yeah, these two are sons from Kashyap Rishi. So by caste, essentially, because it's a paternalistic tradition, it happens, they have become Brahmin. And so Holika is a sister. So that means she's a Brahmin woman, you know, by legend, which is where she's mentioned. Now, what the reality is, these people when they're mentioning these instances of Holika being worshipped in tribal areas, they are confusing Holika and Holi Mata. Now, Holi Mata is indeed worshipped in many parts of the country in many, many tribal traditions, including my hometown. Now, Holi Mata has nothing to do with Holika. What happens is many of us, many of our tribes are traditionally like the Kula Devi is a Devi, right? The Kula devatha is a Devi. And so usually anything auspicious, Devi has to be worshipped. So when you do that, and usually what the tradition goes that in specific instances, for example, if you're doing the Gauri Pooja, a specific form of Ma is being worshipped, that's why it's called Gauri Pooja. So in the same way, during Holi Mata, a specific form of Ma is being worshipped and a specific type of worship is being done, that ritual only happens around Holi. And that includes your offering, the same colors are offered, new clothes are offered, when the dahan is done, that bonfire is done, a part of that bonfire, ashes are brought to the Mata and so on. So like in the Prasad, this Naivedyam is first created. So that's why we make gujiya after the dahan, and then gujiya is first offered to the god. So if we were in the villages, we would offer it to the Kula Devi. And then eventually it will be distributed. So for that particular purpose, a Murti or a makeshift clay idol is created. And all of the village will gather around and offer the blessings over there, like they'll put the offerings in that on the clay idol. So that is that clay idol is called Holi Mata. So now confusing Holimata with Holika is silly because the same people also do the bonfire. So why would they do the bonfire if they were worshipping Holika later? Then why would you celebrate her death? Just two minutes before! They are not related. Now in other parts of India, you can actually see that Holimata, that makeshift idol, is also taken on a Yatra like Ganesh Chaturthi. So they also, the Visarjan happens and so on, like the same process, which is typical for us, like whenever we have a makeshift idol like in Ganesh Chaturthi or in Durga Puja, once the process is completed, it is done - Visarjan into some form of water body. So that also happens. So those processions will chant Holi Mata Ki Jai or something like that. And that's what these urbanites who actually want to speak for the subaltern without getting to know them, without getting to live their lives or understanding their tradition and faith systems, this is how they confuse people. So in this imagination, because she is the goddess of the tribal people, she becomes a tribal deity because they've already confused it and they're not familiar with these ideas of how Holi Mata is constructed, like on a makeshift thing and all of those nuances are not known. And so they will do this confusion and then they will suddenly Holika, the daughter of Kashyap rishi becomes the Dalit woman all of a sudden. And now nobody from the Bahujan parts of India is coming to read this English language article meant to be circulated in USA to correct it, right? Nobody's going to do that. And so and the rest of you are saying we hardly know anything about why things are happening. So we are not also correcting it. So that's how you get to circulate these, you know, false narratives. And it was actually very offensive, because targeting Holi like that. And here is the thing, you know, if you are, let's say, even if I were to imagine this concept of Brahminical Hinduism versus non-Brahminical, Brahminical tribal Hinduism, Holi is the least Brahminical of all, you know, celebrations of Hindus. Like, you know, if you see the typical hallmarks of what is what, how these people define Brahminism is - at least a Brahmin needs to be present, no? Usually all some festivals you require a priest to come and do some puja, but Holi requires the presence of no priest. Right. As I mentioned, in fact, it's a challenging of social norms and mores. Then the tradition inquires, like it requires no particular, like you usually offer it to your own gods, your own deities and a Kula Devi. But it does not require any elaborate temple visit or anything like that. Right. So how, why would, you know, if this were to be confused, check, if we were to put it in these two arbitrary criteria of Brahminical versus non-Brahminical, this is very fundamentally indigenous tribal and adivasi in origins. Right. So, so the entire basis of attacking an indigenous authentic tribal festival, which is like, in fact, one of the biggest festival for many tribes in India as a, you know, fascist thing and trying to disparage it this way and especially targeting American universities is insidious to say the least. Now, are we saying that Vedic traditions are not uninhibited? They are not, you know, connected to Mata or they are not connected to Kula Devi? No, it's a beautiful spectrum. Right. How, what happens now in a traditional, let's say, let's find a simple example in a traditional homa. Right. If you're doing Rudrabhishekam in your home and you are the Yajman and pundits have come and they're conducting it for you. What happens? Right. The starting is you'll do the cleaning of your hands. You'll remember Sri Vishnu for that. Right. Then you will start by remembering your Guru, your ancestors, your Kula Devi and Sri Ganesha. Right. Not, I messed up the order, but basically this is the, like, start with Sri Ganesha, then your Kula Devi, then your ancestors, your Guru. This is the beginning of every homa, every puja, everywhere. Right. Now, if you had, if you were in living in a place where you had access to your Kula Devi's murti, maybe you put it in your temple or maybe you are living in a place where your Kula Devi temple is nearby and that's where you're conducting it. When you are remembering them, it will involve an offering to them immediately. And this will be guided to you by the priest himself. Right. So he's not, there is no distinction between vedic gods and these gods, right. It's a beautiful spectrum. One cannot exist without the other. So the, now, whether you're reading it from the Shastras or the Puranas or you're telling folk stories, it does not matter. Right. That's just the ritual or how should I say levels of ritualism. If you were to do it at your home by yourself, you probably don't know all the Sanskrit verses. So you do it in your mind. Right. You remember the deity and you have, maybe you have a mantra or maybe you don't have a mantra. Maybe you have a Chalisa. For example, in North India, we have these avadhi verses, which serve as the mantras. So Chalisa is our collection of 40 verses or you have sometimes, you know, these, these arathis, for example, these songs that we have constructed for the singing the legends of our gods, Om Jai Jagdish hare being the most prominent one. So we have all of these different levels and ways of worship. Now, some people do it in a very elaborate way where sometimes you need a priest because it's actually too elaborate and it's not possible for some unless somebody is trained in that ritual for tens of years, which is what often priests do. It's hard for a normal householder to start doing it without training. And also it's not recommended to do it without training either. So depending on the level you're doing, for example, in Shivaratri that just passed, most people will do it in their homes. Right. If they have a lingam at home, they will do a simple Abhishekam at home. If they have, if they're going to a temple, then they'll, you know, put money for a Rudrabhishekam for the temple priests to conduct it. Or sometimes people will arrange for a priest to come and do a homa at their home. It's different levels of the same festival. All of them are valid. All of them are common. Rekha: So Neha Ji, you brought up this very, very important point of two traditions coexisting harmoniously. The universal story, the Pauranic story of Holika dahan, the Hiranyakashipu story, and also the Holi Mata Kuladevi local traditions, which are typically known as the Desi and the Margi traditions within Sanatana Dharma. So the interesting thing is that there is really no conflict. And this thing happens over and over again in our tradition, right, with the festivals, with customs, dance, music, and so many things. And I'd like to say here that I think this is not a bug, but a feature of Sanatana Dharma. Any thoughts on this? Neha: Thank you for that software engineering reference. And you're absolutely right. No, so exactly right. So I think, you know, sometimes I find myself browsing through an article that some colonial, you know, neo-colonial Indologist wrote, and they seem so confused, right? If you read the research papers that get published in Indology journals, they are just, you know, it's like it's impossible for them to parse the continuity of this tradition. So sometimes they will be looking at, you know, let's say they'll go to a rural Kuladevi Mandir, right? And they'll see, let's take for an extreme example, let's say they'll see a Bali ritual, right? And then a few, even in Tamil Nadu, let's just take the example of Tamil Nadu. If you go to the rural villages, there are still like some Kuladevi Kuladevata temples where Bali happens, you know, now with the colonial government banning it and then our modern government continuing colonial traditions, you know, officially it's banned, but still happens. Then you cross- Shalini: I think there is a temple in Kerala also, no? The Muthappan temple. Neha: Not just one, not just one temple. Shalini: Yeah, many, many temples. Neha: A lot of places where you have to secretly do this because, you know, our own government has turned against our traditions or, you know, some places where it's relatively open, but it happens. And then you cross a few kilometers and you come to the heart of, you know, say Chennai and you go to a Vaishnava temple or a Shaiva temple, like, you know, Iyengar temple or an Iyer temple and you're suddenly like, this is like very organized, you know, we have a lot of learned gurus who have given like volumes and volumes of very detailed documentary, like documented evidence of everything that they found. And, you know, somehow for these people who come from the West, it looks like these two traditions cannot coexist each other with each other. And the reason they think that is because they're bound with this Christian mentality, where paganism, which was a pre-Christian tradition of their lands, was considered or labeled as backward and, you know, not civilized by the Christians who came to dominate the space later on. So they see, you know, nature worship as uncouth, uncivilized or, you know, the thing that uneducated people do. And this has also been indoctrinated to us in our education, right? Because our education is also colonial. So every time like you have, I'm sure you have read somewhere that, you know, even in our own books that the people, ancient people worshiped Sun because they did not understand its power, right? And so the idea is that the only reason you worship something is because you don't understand it. And so it becomes a myth. And so therefore science becomes a way to dispelling that myth. And, you know, Christianity brought us to the light. And so the old gods lost the power. This is all very, very standard European Christian commentary. This is how they understand their own past. And their present, which is Christian and then eventually post-Christian. So now they use that same.. Shalini: So they project that on our system. Neha: Exactly, exactly. So they project that on our system. Because for them, when they look at, say, Kanchi matham, right, it looks very organized. It looks a little bit centralized. The priests over there are learned. They talk in, you know, high philosophy. And so on, and they can, you know, hold themselves up to any debate. They are, you know, they're experts in science, math, whatever you want them to be. And so this is like, you know, high philosophy is revered, revered as, exalted culture, more civil. And so they see reflections of their Orthodox church in this. And then they look, few villages down, they look at the common villager, who is, you know, just showing pure Bhakti to the Devi. He is also following Tantra. Here is the thing, right, even these temples, the Kula Devi temples are also established as per Agama Tantra. So these, these are still very much rituals that have been told to us, passed down generations of generations through sadhakas, through practical, practical knowledge, right? But because in, in these, to these external observers, it does not appear connected, you know, because unless you are completely disconnected and you're doing some high-falutin philosophy, you're not like, you know, learned enough. So you have to talk in abstract. Suddenly, when you translate that to actual rituals, it becomes old and childish and, and, you know, superstitious and what not. So this dichotomy from their own society, they project on ours. And that's exactly what happens when they look at these traditions. So when they look at the grama traditions, and here is the thing, Dharma clearly says there are many, many acharams, right? There is Vedachar and there is Lokachar, right? And there is not, it is not like a hierarchy. It is not like Vedachar is better than Lokachar. Both are absolutely important. And it is the context that defines which, you know, acharam has to be used and in which circumstance. And so this is, you know, these, all of these interconnectedness is only understood, a lot of this, like even you and I, a lot of us understand this implicitly because we've grown up in this tradition. And, you know, one basic requirement of Indology is that if you've grown up in the tradition, then you're not qualified to speak on it. Because that's the, again, the colonial lens, right? Like, if you're a brown person, you can't possibly be objective in to look at your tradition correctly. Of course, white people can look at white, white culture correctly, but brown people, you know, we have some racial defect. And that's why we can never be objective about our culture unless we prove it to them by proving our atheism first. So all of this, you know, this is a very clever structure created so that their lens remains dominant. So even when a brown person enters these, you know, these academic institutions, you have to prove that your way of thinking has been whitened enough. And that is why they are completely unable to understand these traditions and the beauty of this, this continuity of this tradition, right? Like tantra, whether it's Agama Tantra or Dakshinacharya Tantra or whatever kind of Tantra is learned knowledge. It's practical learned knowledge, like some, you know, great upasaka did years and years and decades of sadhana, found like a point where equally in fact, it is said that there are many Tantric upasakas who have reached a stage where they can access their past lives upasana also. So all of the things that they learned in their past lives, they can collect, remember all of those memories, right? And then they have a bigger picture. And then they try to bring that bigger picture and they try to give you the rules of how to do that for yourself, right? Like they can't just disseminate the secret, you won't understand. So you have to kind of just, they can only show you a path that doing these things in this particular order through this method will lead you somewhere where you can see the truth for yourself. That's Tantra, right? So that's the marg, that's the path that has been given to you. Now it may or may not, Tantra basically distills all of this down to a process. Whereas the Vedanta and other Darshanas, they are more focused on the philosophical end goal. So there is a little bit more philosophy associated with these other paths and less with Tantra, but that does not make these local understanding that we have learned over and built up over generations and generations less valuable, right? And that is exactly how every Indigenous culture has it, right? There is a reason why North American Indigenous people and even Africans, they had so much importance to the elders, right? To the ancient ones, the wisdom of the elders. Why was it valued? It wasn't just a quality of age, that wisdom followed from generation to generation. It was imparted by the ancestors to their future generations when the people felt ready. Rekha: Now this dichotomy, maybe you can analyze the visuals of Holi using this dichotomy too, right? Because Holi being so colorful and so visually appealing, I do know that a lot of photographers converge on Vrindavan just to take photographs of this spectacle and then publish it across the world. But I think a lot of this dichotomy comes into play there also and it has been commercialized quite a bit is what I hear. Neha: Oh absolutely. So you know, the dominant image in the mind of the West is when you are civilized, when you are wise, you are not, you behave a certain way, right? Like, you know, how British were, you were all stuck up and then you know, you behave like you have to act proper and whatever. And so if you're not doing that, right? If you're literally just having fun, that's lack of civilization, right? Lack of civility. And we've learned that even in our minds, we have at some point integrated that. So if somebody is behaving like they're just very, you know, acting very demure and very, you know, quiet and not letting their emotions out, all of that is a mark of manners or civility. And every time you let your hair down and like if you're angry, you're yelling, if you're, you know, happy, you're laughing boldly, all of that is, is, you know, lack of, you know, decorum. So we've learned those behaviors. Rekha: Nehaji, we often see pictures from Mathura and Vrindavan for Holi. Yeah. So is this like the center where it all started and what kind of celebrations are usually done in these places? Neha: Oh, actually, I mean, I don't know if it started there, but it's definitely a very important focal point of the Holi traditions in North India. And the part of the reason is because all of when you, when you listen to Shri Krishna's Rasleela stories, Holi actually plays a very interesting part there. In fact, it comes, the reference comes from his Balakanda to the time he is doing the Rasleela. Yeah. So in fact, because Krishna's birthplace and place where he grew up, are so central to the areas around Mathura, so Mathura, Vrindavan and NandGaon and all of these, they are very, you know, they celebrate the Krishna connection also during those Holi celebrations. So, in fact, when Vrindavan Holi is so very, very famous, in fact, if you just Google it as a most, you know, the most of the Westerners are fascinated by this particular Holi celebration. And I even know of people who try to visit Mathura specifically just to witness the Holi. And so it's actually fairly elaborate. And one of the, this is actually worth mentioning, Vrindavan’s Holi lasts for seven days. And just the color playing part. So like the playing part lasts seven days. Everywhere else, we have one day of Holika Dahan, which is the bonfire ritual, and the next day is the playing colors part. But Vrindavan, the thing goes on for a week. And the first Holi in that day is called Laatmaar Holi, right, and translates to being beaten by a stick Holi. And there is, there is actually a legend behind it. So what happened is, it's part of Rasleela stories of Sri Krishna. So Sri Krishna, who hailed it from Nandgaon, he was visiting Radha in Barsana, which is where she used to live. So he was visiting her. Radha and her friends in Barsana on Holi. And he teased Radha and the other gopis so much, right, that they got really annoyed and they started hitting him, him and his friends with a stick and they chased him out of the city. So it's part of the whole like the Rasleela, the play, and he used to be like a notorious prankster, right. So you would run away with the clothes and whatnot. So he was here teasing them and playing pranks on them a lot. And so they got very annoyed. And so they chased him out of the city. So in sync with that legend, now men from Nandgaon will visit Barsana every year, you know, being acting like their Krishna story. And then the Barsana women will basically beat them up with lathis. Shalini: It happens to this day? It happens to this day? Neha: Exactly. So in fact, now this tradition has spread outside Barsana also, in many places they do this. But that is the, that is the role play that's happening, right. So they are Krishna's friends, the men act like Krishna's friends visiting the gopis and the women act like the women of Barsana act like they are the gopis. And so they basically, you know, reenact that scene. And this especially happens outside the Radharani temple in Barsana, like that's the specific part. And this is one of the most famous temples dedicated to Radha Ma in India. And then obviously you sing and dance and you know, we are very happy people. We drink thandai and all sorts of sweets are eaten and nuts and all of that fun stuff happens. But then one of the other days is Phoolon wali Holi where you play with flowers. Then there is another day where the people play with mud. It's not pleasant but it happens. And then the actual colors Holi. And in fact, Shalini: That makes it for three more. Three, four, one is flowers, one is the mud. Neha: Yeah. And one is colors four and I think the three more. Yeah, I don't remember exactly. Shalini: But these are very interesting, very interesting. Rekha: But but at the same time, there is a lot of shock value or, you know, some kind of an intrinsic value in all these visuals, right? You do see international media using a lot of the Holi and then, you know, coming to something like the widows of Vrindavan. You see that every year the media puts these very nice colorful pictures which I believe are actually sold by the international media. I Neha: In fact, it's big, it's big money. Like a right picture can the copyrights can be translated throughout the world and it can actually make like quite a decent sum. So photographers from around the world gather around and then the, you know, they will just take captionless photos. And then the caption is added by the whoever is looking at the picture. So actually, you brought the brought up widows of Vrindavan. I actually have a Twitter thread where I analyze this! Ever since I joined Twitter. This was 2009. I've been noticing these headlines, right? “Widows of Vrindavan break taboo, break tradition and celebrate Holi!”. Now I actually did an analysis. I just take this phrase “widows of Vrindavan play Holi” and I append a year to it, right? And you can see these stories coming back from all the way up to 2012. So it's been 10 years and every year apparently, those widows break tradition and celebrate Holi and, you know, they break taboo and celebrate Holi. Every year they will announce it as if it's a new thing. So that just makes you question, was that ever a taboo in the first place or is just a myth that media has created that they just like to break because it's a catchy headline? Well, so this is absolutely like it makes a lot of money and from you can find those articles from, you know, they get sent through those news agencies like ANI and then they republished internationally. It's big money. Some of those photos can actually fetch you a very pretty penny, especially like there's so many aerial shots of those of Vrindavan Holi too these days, a lot of them like so. In fact, if you go to during Holi time, if you go to Vrindavan, you'll see a flock of international photographers over there just trying to get those pictures. Rekha: No concerns of privacy? I mean, I'm just wondering for the western world is so big on privacy, but is there no compunction in you know, preying on somebody's personal space. Neha: I very much doubt that they get these contracts like the privacy waiver signed. Exactly. Rekha: You know, let's talk a little bit about the colors. So these colors, there are some typical colors that are used predominantly. I see most of the people using a kind of a magenta color. Neha: So yes, so that pink is very common. The most common probably is pink. And then yellow is very common. Then nowadays, so almost every color on the spectrum, you can find you can find like light blue, powder blues. And even these days, pastels have come into fad. Also organic colors are appearing nowadays. This is interesting. Rekha: This is an interesting variation. So initially, I think we didn't need an organic color because because obviously all color was organic. Flowers and herbs is what I hear. And that specific bright colors that were made from the powder of certain dried flowers. Is that right? Neha: Yes, exactly. So the yellow was actually a mix of turmeric and marigold. And I don't remember the pink came also from a flower. But these days, so they could become a much brighter pink, at least that's what my nani used to say. But yeah, the definitely some colors are more predominant. Although nowadays, again, most of it is made being manufactured in factories. So you get pretty much every color there is. Shalini: Yeah, there's so much of talk about these being chemical colors and not very good for the skin and all. How much truth is there in that? Neha: growing up, I did have at least some like at least for a couple of years, there definitely was some sort of adulterated color coming into the market that was harsh on the skin. But these days, people are like too aware and especially depending on, but here is the thing, you can't control what color gets put on you. You can buy good colors. But then if somebody else buys whatever colors, then you're at the mercy of that person. But again, I think like cheaper colors as usual, you'll find some adulteration there. But mostly nowadays, there are big companies, just like the fireworks for Diwali, there are big companies dedicated to doing this. So if you buy like those brands or if you make at home, sometimes I've seen people starting to make themselves by grinding flowers. So those options are also there. But you find like very easy to find safe colors, to be honest. Shalini: Okay, so now you play with these colors, what do you do to take them off? Neha: That is this mystery thing called Ubtan. Yeah, I'm glad that you asked about removing the colors. So that's a whole entire exercise in itself. So basically, we make this very gooey paste made of all organic elements found at home. So you take either besan, which is ground chickpea flour, or you take wheat flour, your regular aata, and you mix haldi in it. And you put like turmeric, and you put oil, and you put water. Now, it should be a little bit more on the watery side, because you want it to be sticky. But the oil is there so that it removes well also, like when it comes up, all of it should come off. But if you have less oil, then it won't stick long enough. So the point is that you stick, and it's also used during the wedding ceremonies, by the way, after Haldi. So when you do the Haldi ceremony, it's actually Haldi and oil ceremony. So one round is done with Haldi, one round is done with oil, and then Ubtan is applied. And so the Haldi is, etc., is taken off by the Ubtan. And the idea is that obviously, it's very good for your skin, because putting turmeric is very, very nourishing for the skin. But also that consistency of the Ubtan, it brings out all the impurities of the skin. So in this case, that being colors. So colors come off very nicely with Ubtan, for the most part, unless you're, I'm talking about those my naughty cousins who actually pour that nasty chemical thing on my head, those ones don't come out easily. But the powder ones come off very easily, like with Ubtan, you know, between Ubtan and shower are fully covered, like you won't even, people won't even realize that you played Holi. Shalini: Okay, so I was just going to ask about that, you know, does it go in one day or it takes a few days to get rid of these colors? Again, powder? I can work with remnants of the color, you know, at the next day, it's not all good. Rekha: I call it a post-Holi glow, you know, you can always pick that on people. Neha: 100% there is a post-Holi glow, because you're so tired and you're so happy and you're so well fed by the end of this all, that you know, there's a post-Holi glow. But, but jokes aside, honestly, if you're playing only with powder or even with like, you know, diluted colors mixed in water, all of it comes out in one day for the most part. Unless you've been pranked with the thing on your head, then it will take a while. But I actually remember one of my best friends in school, she had like, you know, normal brown hair, but it's a slightly lighter color than the complete black hair that we usually have. So her hair was slightly brownish. And one time she came back after playing Holi and I kid you not, when she stood in the sunlight, her hair looked pink. This when we were not allowed to color our hair, because we were young children back then. So I think you got like a free hair color when there's not a lot of costs involved. But just things like that happen. Again, it completely depends on like the kind of Holi you play and you know, the type of people that, you know, come to your place to play with you. But for the most part, like, powder color 100% comes off with Ubtan. And it's also very good for your skin. So any kind of this harsh chemical or whatever, right? Like if you do the Ubtan treatment afterwards, it also kind of takes care of that. Like, and as I said early on, you have to be careful and put oil before you go out. And that way it will stain on your skin less if you have oil on your skin. Yeah, so for the most part, it comes out. Rekha: This is insider information. Neha: Absolutely. Shalini: So what a rollicking time we've had, you know, but I think now, I think you should speak about your foundation, Nehaji. What prompted you to start the foundation? What do you do? What are your projects, please? Neha: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that's a Shaktitva Foundation is a labor of love. It started around 2018, had to slow it down a couple for the last couple of years because of COVID and, you know, bereavement and family. But essentially, the original idea behind it, it's a decolonial, indigenous, feminist organization. And what I mean by that and this decoloniality and indigeneity approach from a Hindu perspective. So what essentially that means is this actually started around the same time when Shalini Ji you and I met for the first time. This was like the aftermath of Sabarimala. And, you know, we, I'm sure like all three of us were part of it in some way or the other. But one thing that became very obvious in the aftermath or during the Sabarimala protest for all of us Hindu women was that somehow our voice was being erased, right? This entire war was being fought in our name, right? Suddenly it was a Hindus versus women, you know, and the Hindu women were the least heard of all people. If you remember, like we were not allowed on TV debate, we were not, our opinions were considered, you know, fringe by some exactly some miracle, like, you know, majority of women were suddenly fringe. Anybody who basically did not agree with the five feminists of Delhi was fringe, right? So that that erasure is what led to the frustration that eventually led to the inspiration from my calling this Shaktitva Foundation. So the idea was that, you know, our voices need to have a place and not just the voice of a Hindu woman in India, but also this, the immigrant Hindu woman in growing up in America, right, or living in America. And the same thing that you know, because what happens is if we don't speak up, somebody else takes the mic and starts speaking for us, right? Whether we are the subaltern and whether we are an unrepresented group, if people don't speak up for their own groups, their names are misused and, you know, activists kind of take up that mantle of speaking on behalf of us, even if that is not the majority opinion, or even they forget the majority opinion, even if it is not even a minority opinion, then this will happen. And so we wanted to kind of set up a space where we can bring forth the lived experiences of a Hindu woman from the point of view of what we just did, right? Like we were talking about Holi from the lived experience of a person who has participated in it. And not just that, it's not just isolated to my personal experience, but also I try to kind of dive into the, when we do the research. If you see, a lot of people actually write for us, the articles and the work that we do focuses on bringing forth the original, authentic, indigenous meaning behind the things. And the reason is India and by extension, the South Asian activism circles is full of people who almost are kind of like the people who have been left behind by the colonialists, right? It's almost that they wanted to be taken with them, you know, ‘why did you leave us behind’ sort of frustration that you see in these activists. And so they look at every time they sort of create this, you know, unnecessary rift in the society, it's because they're looking at things from a colonial lens, whether it is they're getting angry at Sabarimala tradition or it's not a concern for women that led to the creation of that controversy, right? It was that, you know, it is a colonial view. We must so that the colonial white man saviourism has appointed these brown saviours. And so they're now going to save Hinduism from Hindus, essentially. That's what's happening. So they're taking up for that, that colonial mantle of reform, and they're imposing all of these ideas on us in order to get some name and fame and they become those these heroes of who saved the women from oppressive Hinduism and so on. So whether it's the Sabarimala question, whether it is the Jallikattu again, no concern for actual animals or anything like that, whether it's the elephant controversy or whether it's in North India, the Kavadia controversy. Now they'll say these are rowdy men. Kavadiya men in Kavadia is the same when they become rowdy. 10 minutes later when farm laws happened, the same men who were actually doing Kavadia minutes before these are the oppressed category of farmers. So there is no rhyme or reason to it. So exactly that the point was that, you know, we wanted to create a space where Hindu women could find their voice and essentially take up that narrative and clear it up from their side. So we do a whole host of things. There's one is very important aspect is research driven articles like this one on Holi. I've done another one on Rakshabandhan and there's many more that are coming, not just on festivals, we also do on general issues and so on. And there is the other aspect of on-the-ground activism where we sort of try to help groups. So for example, we did a workshop with Bhutanese Hindu refugees who are living in America, especially the kids. And we did a workshop there about Dharma and specifically with the girls, about menstruation because menstruation is - like the menstrual restrictions are very strictly followed in Nepali and Bhutanese communities. And that becomes a very important propaganda point for missionaries to try to convert these kids. So we wanted to present the honest truth of why these rituals exist, like why are these menstrual restrictions are at all present in the culture and what are the significance, not prescribing them or, you know, or denying them, just presenting the truth of it. After that, it's up to you. Like as is always the case in Dharma. And similarly, we also did a project for to focus on the domestic violence survivors, Indian origin domestic violence survivors in America. That so we're trying to sort of create a space where we can dispel the fake issues and focus on the real issues and essentially, you know, move forward with that mindset. Shalini: So is this an initiative only driven only by you or is are you a team of a few people? Neha: No, we are a team of we're a team of a few people. We have few directors and after that, there is an advisory board. So the details can be found that also volunteers that work at different levels. Some of them are, for example, interested in conducting those workshops that I spoke about in their areas for a specific group. So we sort of arm them with the content and we help them and train those volunteers for those spaces. There's also like several other projects that are in the works just COVID kind of, you know, through a wrench and all of them. But but we're trying to sort of bring it up again. Hopefully this year, you should see a lot more action. Shalini: Sure. This sounds very empowering and well, such a misused word, but for lack of a better word, empowering our own women, you know, Neha: So we'll actually, I'll actually end with the quote. somehow it dawned on me while I was sitting in Sadhana. You know, I said, Hindu women are embodiments of Shakti and you do not empower Shakti, you bow before it. So that's why the name is Shaktitva, which is the essence of being Shakti. Now, this is not to be construed with this modern new agey idea of, you know, I am princess, I am a goddess type, you know, the wrong notions. No, we are talking about like a very sacred channeling of the divine energy that can happen when you are you know, when you are really devoted to your gods and your faith and to your culture and the indigeneity of it all. Like it's not, these terms almost seem to have become like negative terms, honestly, in the western space. But for, you know, as an indigenous person, it's all the same. It's a spectrum. These words are not disconnected at all. Rekha: Nehaji, I'm looking at your website. And there is a scheme, there is something called the Gayatri grants. Is that still operational? Is that something that can be used to encourage young people to write for you? Neha: Oh, absolutely. Yes. So Gayatri grants are not just even for writing. Even if there was a proposal that like that somebody wants to take up like a more elaborate research project towards anything, you know, towards something that brings together that aligns with the mission of Shaktitva. We are more than happy to sort of sponsor that activity because research itself, you know, is expensive. And, you know, so we want to encourage through this grant system, we want to encourage people to apply for, you know, proposals and come up with ideas because, as I said, like it's very difficult for one person to or a few people to cover the breadth of this issue. So if there is even if there's something very simple as you notice that there is a tradition that is unexplored, and it aligns with our mission, and you want to research it, you know, please submit a grant to us, grant proposal to us, the template is provided on the website. So you just have to fill that template up and send us a proposal and we'll evaluate it. And hopefully, like we can come up with a collaboration. Rekha: Can you tell us the name of the website for all the listeners? We will also be providing links to the website on our transcript. But can you just mention the name please? Neha: Yeah, it's Shaktitva.org. S-H-A-K-T-I, Shakti. And then, Shaktitva.org. Shalini: Great. Yeah, so I think we've had a one hell of a ride with you, Nehaji. It's been absolutely exhilarating, I would say. And I think this episode will not stay at 35, 40 minutes, but that's okay. But I think even our listeners will find it extremely engaging and beautiful too. So I think I'm absolutely floored by your quote. I would like you to end once more with the quote that you just mentioned and then we'll call it wraps. Neha: Absolutely. So the way we mentioned it is that Hindu women are embodiments of Shakti. You do not empower Shakti, you bow before it. Shalini: And with that, I think we come to the end of this edition of our podcast, and we will connect with our listeners in a fortnight's time. Thank you. Thank you, Nehaji. Thank you very much for spending so much time with us and giving us one grand experience of Holi. Thank you so much and thank you, Rekha, and we will meet with our listeners soon. Namaste. Hindu Parenting is free today. But if you enjoyed this post, you can tell Hindu Parenting that their writing is valuable by pledging a future subscription. You won't be charged unless they enable payments.
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